Podcast Episode
Episode Description
In this episode of The Balance, Jessica Vance joins me to discuss her new book, Evidence of Inquiry: Exploring, Questioning, and Documenting with Learning Walls.
We explore what it means to “follow your learners” and how inquiry shifts the way teachers engage students around the topics and concepts at the center of the curriculum. Jessica unpacks the purpose and power of learning walls, explaining how they make student thinking visible, create space for collaborative meaning-making, and even serve as professional playgrounds for teachers themselves.
Together, we reflect on the mindset, culture, and practical strategies that help both teachers and students embrace uncertainty, curiosity, and deeper learning.
Episode Resources
- Jessica’s Instagram: @jess_vanceedu
- Evidence of Inquiry: Exploring, Questioning, and Documenting with Learning Walls
- Leading with a Lens of Inquiry: Cultivating Conditions for Curiosity and Empowering Agency
Episode Transcript
This transcript was generated using AI transcription tools to support accessibility and provide a searchable, readable version of the podcast. While we’ve reviewed and lightly edited the content for clarity, there may still be occasional errors or omissions.
Catlin Tucker
Welcome to The Balance. I’m Doctor Catlin Tucker and my guest today is Jessica Vance. She is an experienced educator with both teaching and leadership background. She is really passionate about student centered learning, collaboration, inquiry. She is the author of two books. Her first book was titled leading with a Lens of Inquiry and her most recent book, which we will be talking a lot about, is called Evidence of Inquiry Exploring, Questioning and Documenting with Learning Walls. So thrilled to have her on the podcast and have the opportunity to talk about her incredible work with inquiry. Well, I am thrilled to have this conversation, and I’d love for you to just start by sharing a little bit of your journey in education with listeners. So they get a sense of who you are and where you started, and how you got to the work that you’re doing now.
Jessica Vance
Of course. Yeah. You know, all journeys kind of take you into some unexpected places, and I’m sure your listeners probably have that same experience as well. You know, my journey in education actually started in a very traditional setting, a private school in California. You start at page one and you finish at page 100 and whatever, and that is all that you have. And it never quite felt great. And also, too, I was finding my footing as an educator, and transitioned to, another state living in Austin, Texas. Found my way into an IB school, which introduced me to the world of inquiry. I had no idea what IB was. The school actually was in its candidacy phase, so they were trying to figure it out, too. And, the principal, I remember asking her, like, can you tell me a little bit more about it? She’s like, basically it’s just best practice. I’m like, okay, well, I like that does not.
Catlin Tucker
Clear up anything.
Jessica Vance
No. And, I think I was just, like, seeking something so totally different than what I had experienced before. So I was like, yeah, I’m game. You seem great. This seems like a cool culture. And fell in love with the world of inquiry because it flipped upside down. Everything that I thought that I knew about teaching, but also resonated in such a way that felt really good. Although inquiry is very ambiguous and very confusing when you kind of get going. But I think it just like sparked this curiosity for me. So being in the classroom for about ten years or so and then having the opportunity to step outside of the classroom, as an IB coordinator and then support adult learners and finding another passion. And that way, as you kind of know, to and having a greater impact on students because of just your positioning and because you have that, you know, different kind of perspective, but never losing that need and that desire to be alongside my learners, even though I had stepped outside of that formal classroom space. So, yeah, leading adult learners is where I sit and reside now. And yeah, I just feel really grateful and fortunate. And I continue to learn each and every single day.
Catlin Tucker
Oh yeah, I know I feel the same way. Every group of educators I work with is so unique and in different places and working with different populations of learners, and I feel like it is such. It is like the fuel that keeps me being creative and writing and designing resources because everybody is facing these kind of unique situations. And yeah, I love that. And so you said inquiry can be kind of this hard to pin down concept. So if you had to kind of pin it down or from your perspective when you when you talk about inquiry, what does that mean for you? Just so we can anchor this whole conversation about inquiry in that for listeners?
Jessica Vance
Yeah, I would say now the way I define it is, leveraging learner or student curiosity in connection with your curriculum or standards, and really trying to balance those, if you will. And we know that curiosity is a really big motivator, right? Like if we, when we’re curious about something as adults are like, yeah, I’m going to go do that thing or want to learn this or invest my time here. And the same thing has happened in our classroom spaces as well too. So how can we leverage curiosity to be able to motivate our students and have our students be able to find those opportunities for deeper connection making? So I’d say, like holistically, that’s probably how I would kind of define it now. It’s a very learner centered approach. But again, I feel like that’s kind of like a very ambiguous thing as well too. It’s like, what do you mean by that, Jessica. Right. How do I do that? So I’d say like that curiosity space is definitely one that I anchor. And a lot of the learning and teaching that I do now with adults, in different types of contexts and settings.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. No, the learner centered learner focused, learner led learning is something I also am kind of people are like, wait, students can’t do everything and like that is not what I’m suggesting. What I am suggesting is that we position them at times to lead their learning. Right. And I think one of the things, one of the phrases in the very beginning of the your newest book was about like, follow your learners. And I loved this idea that like and it felt kind of like this powerful throughline in the book. And yet there’s not how a lot of classrooms are set up. And so when you think about like, why do you think this idea of following our learners is such an important mindset shift? And how or maybe what role can inquiry play in making this more achievable in classrooms? Right. Because I love your point earlier. It’s it’s not about doing something totally unconnected from your curriculum or your standards. It’s really about piquing student interest in curiosity in relation to these things.
Jessica Vance
Yeah. Yeah I do say that a lot, even though you’re saying that out loud, I’m like, oh yeah, I do say that a lot because that really is my why in my how. And I say that a lot and I reflect on that a lot because really I feel like that’s where the craft of teaching lies. And we feel very bogged down as educators by the curriculum and by the standards and kind of all the other and ends like it piled up on our plate.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah.
Jessica Vance
And when we can ground ourselves and following our learners, we can lean into this playful stance or playful mindset, which you need to have when you embody inquiry as a mindset and of course, as a teaching practice as well too. And it helps keep us curious too. If I’m always looking at how my learners are responding, the way that I am, paying attention and noticing and showing up requires me to have that curiosity cap on, because I’m looking for some of the cues. Now, of course, some educators might say, oh, well, that’s what I’m doing. When I’m assessing. I’d say yes. And there’s a nuance to following your learners in this way, to be able to have or help them or have them help us, show us some pathways forward. Right. Instead of it being a transaction, I’m going to give you this thing. And now, like you tell me whether or not you got it becomes more of a way that we can slow down this transaction, if you will, and lean into a more of a conversation, a little bit of a give and get without having to sacrifice opportunities for some rich and deep learning. And so, you know, I think that question in itself, I know I was like, oh, yeah, I say that too, when I ask teachers that or even adult, like principals, if you will, who are leading adult learners. Yeah. Like that’s a question that often stops them in their tracks of, oh, wait, have I noticed what’s happening and how my learners are responding to me? And so I’d say some like, really simple ways because, again, this is probably really ambiguous. Katlin, for some of your, you know, listeners who are either new to inquiry or maybe a new educator, and it’s like, can you listen to the questions that you’re hearing? Are you hearing very closed questions or they’re fact and figures? Okay. Well, what does that tell you about your practice? And how are you really sparking that curiosity? And maybe if you’re not, that’s your starting place there, right.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Vance
You know so or thinking routines I love I think your routine because it’s such a huge.
Catlin Tucker
Fan of thinking routines.
Jessica Vance
Yeah, I.
Catlin Tucker
I saw you calling those out in the book and I was just like, yes, making our thinking visible. I am here for all of this.
Jessica Vance
Yeah. And it makes us like, sit on our hands. Right? Or put like, you know, something over our mouth, like, okay, stop. Stop trying to risk rescue and step in too quickly and just sit and watch and listen and let that cognitive friction sit a little bit longer than maybe you’re comfortable with. Your learners are comfortable with it and then see what happens next.
Catlin Tucker
It was interesting in an earlier conversation, one of the kind of, things that I was talking with a guest about was really that we have to be as curious about our learners as we want them to be curious about the content or the curriculum or whatever it is we’re teaching. And I think what I love about what you’re saying is really the not just being curious about them, but like allowing them the space to sit with ideas to engage. And another thing you talk about, which we will dig into, which is so aligns with messaging that I am often kind of relaying in my professional learning and work with educators, which is this step of meaning making in classrooms is so frequently just like we blow right by it, we don’t have time to let kids sit in this space of meaning making. And I think that is so problematic. And so I just love this idea of what are we learning from students about what they’re saying? The questions are asking how they’re navigating a situation. I think that’s so important.
Jessica Vance
Yeah. And not easy right. The pressures of time, the pressures of curriculum. And so how can we as a double you know learners or leaders of learning like be able to say it’s okay to stop and pause, create systems and structures for educators to feel a sense of exhale and to think about their thinking as well too. So it’s essential for inquiry to thrive. It can’t thrive. So leaders aren’t modeling it or providing structures and systems in order for it to do so.
Catlin Tucker
Absolutely. And I should I should have said this before. The book that I read that I am referring to is Evidence of Inquiry exploring, questioning, documenting with learning walls. This is your second book is definitely the one we’re going to kind of dig into in this conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Anybody who listened to my earlier conversations with Trevor McKenzie, I was like, I feel like I’ve gotten this, crash course reading your guys’s work around inquiry. And I just loved this idea of the learning walls, creating space for collaborative meaning making, which I’m such a huge fan of. But I also know that meaning making. And especially when we’re engaging a group of students together, it feels messy. It can feel chaotic. It can feel time consuming. In this environment where teachers never feel like they have the time to lean into these kind of spaces with kids. Yet learning is messy. I it’s not this tight and needy or like tight and like neatly packaged thing that I see so many teachers trying to do in classrooms. So first, I would love for you to tell us what is a learning wall, right? Like how do you define this and maybe the next step is how do we message to teachers the value of a learning wall so that they might consider creating the time for something like this.
Jessica Vance
Yeah okay I’m going to start with what it is not.
Catlin Tucker
Okay. What it is not what you do is not in the book which is super helpful.
Jessica Vance
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Because I am not afraid to start with the barriers like those to me are the way I had an amazing former principal of mine who said that the barrier is the way. Jess, I’m like, you’re right. That’s like the provocation. That is the thing. So how do we go above around the kind of like, you know, move through it? Which is why I started with the what? It’s not piece. So I’d say it’s not a static display. Even some of the I’ll do air quotes here, learning walls that I had put in my first publication, leading with a lens of inquiry. I look at those now, I’m like, well, that’s actually not really a learning. Most of my thinking and knowing around authentic documentation has grown over time since my research and writing of that first book. So I’d say it’s not a static display. It’s not something that we’re staying after school and putting up after hours. Right? It’s very active, meaning a learning loss shouldn’t be something that goes up at the end of a six week unit or two weeks or whatever. You’re kind of like narrative of learning. Is it something that we’re actively adding to and calling on our learners to be able to engage in? I do also say that, a wonder wall is not a learning wall. And I know that’s a little pokey. If you have some educators here who use a wonder wall. And I’m not saying that a wonder wall is not a part of a learning wall, or can be, but what I tend to find and notice, too, as educators are utilizing wonder walls as it’s very one noticed noted, collect questions after an amazing thinking routine and provocation. And then they’ll go there today.
Catlin Tucker
Okay.
Jessica Vance
I’ll look at them. I’m like, oh yeah, I forgot about that, right? Yeah. So, I encourage if that’s your start, that’s amazing. And then also, how does it not become this passive wallpaper piece? How does it become something that impacts your thinking and how you’re planning and using those questions to design your next steps? And then really, what is it? It highlights the process of learning what is our first thinking. Right. Maybe we have a provocation that we’re anchoring in some thinking routine, like a chalk talk and gathering some of those photos or screenshots of the YouTube video and putting those up there as evidence of first thinking. And then as we uncover, read, have some direct instruction and maybe things a little bit more freeform. Let’s go back to our first thinking. How is it change and creating some space and time, even five ten minutes for learners to turn and talk and make that connection of oh my thinking has changed. It doesn’t have to be this one way, and it isn’t this one way all the time. And how we use that evidence to guide our next steps. So, it does highlight the messy in a very uncomfortable way for some educators who like things Pinterest worthy and perfect. And I love to kind of like, say, what would happen if we did things different. Yeah. There are space for both, of course. So, any of the learning walls in the book that you referenced, evidence of inquiry are not perfect. They’re not gold stars. They’re not the five on the rubric scale. Right? All in this process of educators making sense of what this is and how do they do it, and just vulnerably sharing their practice with the readers as well.
Catlin Tucker
I love that, and I as you’re talking, I’m like, well, and then if you go back to the wall, you could use, I used to think and now I think in what changed my thinking and let you know like structure these think pair shares with another thinking routine that gets them looking at that previous kind of evidence of thinking and then comparing it to where they’re at. And I think sometimes what I really love about kind of what I was taking away from reading about learning walls was just this beautiful, messy, ongoing documentation of learning. And I think so many kids go in and out of classrooms every day, and they are given these tidy packages of information, and they’re asked to apply it in a series of activities and worksheets, and then we move on. And that evolution of our questioning and our thinking about something and really recognizing the depth that we’re getting into is so it feels kind of absent. Or if it’s there, I don’t know if students are actually aware of it because there’s no physical or digital documentation.
Jessica Vance
Yeah. And that research really is hundreds of years old like Reggio Emilia space is the third teacher. Like that’s not me just. But how do we leverage what you know is happening in the early years to benefit how the brain works. And those opportunities for deeper connection making, like you said, physical or digital for students to be able to make those connections. And then we just position ourselves to provide that opportunity for that to happen for our students.
Catlin Tucker
I love that. So let’s kind of shift in, maybe a little bit more because you have to hit this all the time, which is that feeling of this is a great idea. I get that there might be some research behind it. This is my reality. My reality is I’m in a school where I have a lot of pressure to keep up with pacing guides and cover content and get kids ready, blah, blah, blah. So how do you help teachers really think about the value the payoff of this investment in time? Because it is an investment. But I think it’s really clear in the book that like the dividends of putting this time and energy into this is so worth it.
Jessica Vance
Yeah. Few things come to mind. You know, something I’m thinking about is like student engagement. I know that this is really challenging for educators right now in the classroom is they are fighting technology or AI tools and and, you know, kind of like school needs and curriculum. Like there’s a lot of things that we continue to fight. And so learning walls are a pathway, I think, to begin to like unpack some of those barriers. So in regards to engagement, if we’re planning with our learning while in mind and thinking about how might what we’re adding here as far as artifacts support our students, for example, in a summative assessment, there’s a learning wall in the book where an educator did some backwards design. Okay, at the very end of our unit, we’re going to be writing an essay with some character analysis. What would happen if across time, I asked my students and task students to add some of their thinking ideas, quotes, figurative language, reflections about this novel study that we’re engaging in together? So really great opportunities for artifact collection. Students are forced to collaborate. Building up those communication skills, which we definitely know is essential. Yeah, teachers can use it as some formative assessment. Of course, too. But then now at the end of the six, eight weeks or have long the novel study is you have this whole space for students to be able to leverage and use for a phenomenal summative assessment. Right? So if your task is to write this essay, how many times do our students be like, oh gosh, right. Oh, what am I going to say? I’m not sure. Right. Yeah. And you provided these amazing scaffolds around the way. If I’ve been out, let’s say I’ve been absent a lot and I have that happen a lot to some different schools. And I’m working with. Okay, what an invitation to Jess was out for a couple of weeks for some things. Now guess what? She’s invited back to the learning. She doesn’t have to feel like she’s missed something and she can still engage. And then summative assessment and not be so far behind. And then we can use that and leverage that for conferencing as well too. If we have students who need a little bit of extra support or students who are not sure what language to use, is there something in our wall that you might reference or borrow that you know, we talked about a couple of weeks ago? And so providing some space and really there’s a gem to kind of like, you know, action forward as well too. So planning with the end in mind, to me is a really powerful way to be able to have a richer formative. So that way our summative is phenomenal, really reflect some of the thinking and deep connection making that students have made.
Catlin Tucker
Absolutely. Well. And everybody on the who’s listening to this podcast for any length of time has heard me talk about Jamie Guy. He’s been on this podcast twice, and he always sends incredible people yourself included, my direction, which I am so appreciative of. But yeah, the whole idea, you know, that Jay and then Grant Wiggins, as I did the backward designing of really aligning what is the desired result. And then, okay, immediately after defining that, how are we going to assess it? And I think I could totally see teachers who are using backward design and have that clarity of vision, being able to weave, learning a learning while learning walls into that pathway to allow students to kind of continually build up to that desired result and that end assessment in a way that’s so meaningful because even listening to you speak, I remember when I finally got over this idea as an English teacher at the high school level, that, okay, everybody’s going to write their essay and it’s a solitary endeavor, and you have to find your own quotes, because that’s how I’m going to know you really understood stuff. And I remember at one point just being like, you know what? Finding really good textual evidence that is going to help us understand how this theme evolved. That’s hard. That’s really hard work. What if we did that together? What if we all had books and we were talking about quotes and we were curating what we thought was like the best evidence and having conversations, and I could see if that was instead of not just like something we did the week before the essay writing was going to be completed. But if it was this ongoing conversation about the literature, pulling quotes, talking about them like threading connections right between them, how much more confident, like talk about removing barriers students would feel approaching something as cognitively challenging as a writing task, and how many students would really want to rely on AI to spin that up if they’ve been invested in this conversation and this thinking the entire unit.
Jessica Vance
Yeah. It’s really powerful. And it doesn’t have to just live in that high school space. But I also too I know sometimes that tends to be a little bit more traditional approach to, you know, teaching because of the time. Right. I only have you for 50 minutes. So I got to get through the thing or you’re 14. So you should be able to do this, right. Like I guess like kind of those things that we get stuck in and our youngest learners, our younger learners can utilize learning walls as well to where the artifacts they’re there can help with retrieval. And I love just even like, you know, using that at the start of class. Right. Go find a friend and find an artifact on the learning wall. And you give them like a sentence them to be able to turn and talk and share and just like, softly enter the learning space. And, you know, have a little bit of consolidation. You walk around, lean in and listen. And when we use different, tactics like this or have different routines like this, our students are doing more of the talking, which means they’re doing more of the heavy lifting and thinking as well, too. And then we can better assess as well too. So building it with our learners, tasking and telling them to be able to go, you know, pull up a chair to the learning wall and to be able to talk about the artifacts, getting our students to talk about their thinking is a skill, and it doesn’t come naturally unless we model it, unless we practice it and fold it. So, yeah, hopefully those give your listeners something to try to, feel like, it’s it’s attainable. Right?
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. No, I in my mind, I think I also think a lot about barriers. I think my work in universal design for learning gets me constantly thinking about, okay, what might be the thing that makes this hard for teachers to do? And obviously everybody thinks through their own lens. But I was like, okay, so let’s say you have and I tend to think secondary is a little harder to move in some of these directions because to all your points, like teachers have, that subject area expertise. So I think there’s more of that tendency to be like, I’m going to tell you about this thing that I know a lot about. I think the age and the conditions of the time constraints is definitely tough. Whereas I find often elementary’s a little bit more open to some of these different ways in which to engage learners. So I was thinking from that secondary lens like, okay, so you have a group of 32, 35 kids like these huge glasses. That was my reality as a public school teacher. Like, is it realistic to get all my kids in front of a learning wall doing something? And then I was like, gosh, how many times do I run? For example, station rotation training or a playlist model training and teachers are like, oh, but I have to like whip up all these different activities. I’m like, how cool. If one of the offline stations was positioned right by the learning wall, and it was really about kids just engaging with that and having these prompts for discussion or reflection. That would be such a great way to like address that. Or I know a lot of teachers, when they’re building a playlist, they worry about kids being on the screen the whole time in the self-paced mode and not really connecting with each other. And how beautiful to have these little stops in the playlist that direct them. Like physically go away from your computer, engage with this wall, find a partner who’s in the same spot and there’s all of these really creative ways. And I was like, oh my gosh, I could see this totally working and kind of addressing some of those concerns as well.
Jessica Vance
Yeah. You know, you’re speaking about that secondary space and I was just talking to an educator, a high school teacher in South Africa recently. And she was saying that she’s never seen her students. So engage from those who are very introverted who like never want to participate and never want to like engage or have partner work. And those who are kind of like ready to move beyond. She’s like the way that I’m able to differentiate and not have to, like, spend 1,000,000 hours making the copies or having all these other resources because we’re building it together. And those access points have just been transformational. And, just to hear that, I was like, that is it. That is why I wrote this book, because this is like the thing and the fact that she was able to use that and see such an immediate impact after we engaged in some learning together, was just like such fantastic feedback. And gosh, her students now are just having such a different experience with school. Which of course is why we do what we do 100%.
Catlin Tucker
So you do talk about different ways teachers can build and kind of structure learning walls. And I thought that might be kind of fun just to get listeners kind of sparking their own thinking about how this might work in their classes. So maybe you could describe a couple different approaches or how they can kind of help students make that thinking visible with different kinds of structures for different kinds of learning walls.
Jessica Vance
Yeah. So there in the publication I share a couple of different structures. One of them is a timeline. And that is something that I’d say from our earliest learners to those who maybe even at the collegiate level, know how to use and work a timeline, right? We see them in books that were reading or maybe in museums or kind of other spaces. So I think like the cognitive lift to figuring out like what’s here and how do I make it work is not that hard. So I think that’s kind of like a nice one as well too. And then you can kind of like physically move across time. Yeah. And then you can kind of organize the materials in the way that you want to. I am a little bit more freeform in my kind of thinking. So I’m a little bit more organic. Where you might take, like, you know, like a spider web diagram and whatever. What’s your concept? Could you put that in the middle or your topic or your central idea? If you’re within the IB and then having kind of like some things like shoot from there. So that way it’s like drawing attention. So I’d say like how do you organize the artifacts is something that I ask educators to think about. I you could say just start because, yes, just start. What’s the worst that can happen? And also too, I know like our lizard brain, well, we’re trying something new wants to feel that sense of safety. So just use a structure. And the one that you choose might work and it might not, but I’d say like, those are some really great ones. To think about another strategy that I speak about in the book, it’s called stringing along. And let’s say you’ve been building your learning wall for a couple of weeks, or even just a week, and you want to see or assess how your students are making connections, like you’ve done the hard work in the planning, maybe. And so for stringing along, it’s literally like, either tasking and telling students to find a partner or independently kind of stopping and jotting fine to artifacts on our learning wall and, you know, share how they’re connected. And literally you can physically take the stringing.
Catlin Tucker
Which is.
Jessica Vance
Great for our students who are maybe learning English as a second language. Right. I’ve seen some elementary educators use the string, and then they’ll take like a sticky note and they’ll write the connection that was discussed in the like, put it right on the string so that way can go back to it later as well too. But just kind of like having that routine around that is really great. And giving the students a string, right. Like that could be the thing as well too.
Catlin Tucker
So oh my gosh, I love I love anything that makes the abstract concrete anything it doesn’t even like. It’s super helpful for young learners and multilingual learners. But like any learner, just to be like, okay, here’s this connection. And I mean, I am like such a color coded nerd that I would have like different strings and be like, if you choose your color string and make your content, you make your connection. And they kind of reminded me of like one of those like, boards when a detective is figuring something out. And I thought, that’s such a cool comparison, because they should be little detectives trying to figure out how are we making sense of this concept or understanding this essential question or whatever is driving the learning for them. And I just I think that so often they don’t get some of those little just like tactile experiences of, you know, I’m going to thread the string between these two things and yeah, I’m going to write something in a minute, like make this post it, flip it around so it lives there. And then I’m going to get to see all of the other really visible connections that my classmates are making. And then maybe once we make our, you know, connections, the next step in a future class is like, let’s sort and kind of rank and like, which ones resonate for you? I there’s just so many places it seems like such a simple concept, and yet there’s so much depth that as I was working through it, I was like, I have so many ideas.
Jessica Vance
Yeah, no. And you can use it for formative, right? And you can also use it for some of them. So I’ll kind of go to that place. It could be, you know, that’s the task is identify two artifacts on our learning wall and, you know, string them together and, you know, in your paragraph or in your couple of sentences, share how they’re connected, why and what’s the evidence that proves it. Right. And so, like, even just in that way, like that could be something that could be a digital task that students have to go grab an iPad and take a photo and like physically, just like take like, you know, the digital pen and do that as well too. And so it’s just that physicality. Of course, getting up and moving gets that oxygen to the brain, which is really great and playful and easy and important for us all as learners as well too. So yeah, stringing along as a favorite for sure.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah, I love that. And I appreciate you bringing up the how important movement is. I think sometimes when I work with teachers, we talking about rotating kids through learning activities and then being up and around. And there’s just so it’s kind of like sometimes a groan I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m gonna be moving around. I’m making a lot of noise. Just like that itself can feel like a barrier. But to your point, the positive impacts on the brain of students being able to move is something worth kind of acknowledging. And I can see another barrier. And this isn’t something that, like you and I prepped for, but that physical space, right, like, oh, I don’t have a dedicated classroom or I have a classroom, but I have all these windows or things that like, might interfere with the learning wall, which I’m sure you or I have. You know, as a public school teacher, I had six classes, actually. So it’s like, do I have six learning walls? And I know you talk about a digital kind of, the digital art alternatives, but how do you speak to that? Because I know you must get that quite a bit.
Jessica Vance
I do, yeah. And it’s one of the steps in the sketch note of how to build a learning wall is find a blank space. And really it’s what space can your learners access is what I’m asking educators to think about. So, you know, if you have windows, use the windows. If you have the back of the door, use the back of the door. You know, you said I had six classrooms. Just could you just use some butcher paper or anchor chart paper? That’s rolled up? You know, even when I’m doing some consulting work with some school sites, I’ll roll up, like anchor chart paper and then just, like, stick them in a bin or a drawer, and then I’ll come back later. Right. And I’ll like, roll that back out and like, that’s our provocation to like, engage in retrieval and reflection. Hey, how’s it going? Like it doesn’t. We don’t have to overthink it. I’d say don’t wait for the perfect space. Like, oh, find a blank space. Maybe it means you move some cabinets and you move heirs that are just sitting there and get them out of the way. Yeah. And, you know, could be underneath, like, a monitor that you have, like, already on your wall. It could be on the floor. There’s these, this early years educator that I’ve reference her learning wall several times in the book, but she just uses butcher paper, but her students have it on the floor so they can read and talk about their learning. And it’s just this, like, really great, easy thing that they can easily access. And they can roll it up and they can unroll it and put it in the place where it belongs. So I’d say, yeah, number one is how do your learners access it? What can they access. And then like that’s your starting point and don’t overthink it.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. That’s you know, a lot of us educators are in the business of overthinking things. Jessica.
Jessica Vance
Yes.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. But I agree, it’s not all about being flexible. And I think sometimes we get also as educators, really kind of, committed isn’t the right word. But like, we like are things that are up the way we have them. So this idea of rethinking maybe how we’re using our space, it may be a little uncomfortable, but I think when your kids are co-creating something and you’re seeing it unfold, it’s like this beautiful, organic, I don’t know, evidence of learning that I think is worth creating the space for which I. Yeah. So, yeah, one of the things that you talked about that I was like, oh my gosh, I love this so much, was the idea of teachers creating their own kind of like professional learning wall in the classroom. And I often say kind of like teachers are the lead learners in a classroom. The best teachers are the ones who never stop learning. They’re curious. They want to always improve on their craft. They know, like we’re never at the end of learning. We’re never like perfect teachers. We can always get better, adding strategies and, you know, things to our toolbelt and to this idea, or the image I have in my head of, like, maybe behind the teachers set up, they have their own little wall where they’re constantly kind of evaluating their own practice and making their own learning visible for students. I just think that’s so incredibly powerful. So I’m curious, did was this your idea? Did you have a teacher who ran with it in this direction, like, what was the response from students when they saw their teacher with their own kind of learning wall happening?
Jessica Vance
You know, I think it was probably me first. I think I am a visual learner in that way and need I mean, you’ve seen my hands move around a lot, like I need to move. And so I think having things visibly was where I started. In my first publication, I talk about, like, learning about my adult learners and our school and what we were unpacking together. And there’s so many parts and pieces and ways that things have to work together. It was just like hogwash in my brain. I’m like, okay, I got to get it out. So then it was tinkering with it first and then really, like modeling the model for my adult learners and then bringing them alongside of like, you know, what are some of our observations? What did our function say last time we met together as a PLC. So using that to help us learn about ourselves as a school community really is where the idea, I think was born. And that was probably again being like in charge of a program, trying to figure out, are we meeting standards practices? We have this evaluation. But then through that, seeing the impact on them and how it was driving our professional growth together and then nudging other educators to do that as well, too. And then, of course, school leaders, curriculum coordinators, that sort of thing as well, too, is how can we model the model but also practice the routines that we want to then later utilize with our students? So I think it’s like this nice way for us to maybe do it in a way that has a sense of psychological safety and maybe vulnerability. Right? Because teachers don’t want to make the mistakes even if they feel comfortable or, you know, I get it, like doing that, you know, when you have the pressures or maybe, you know, you’re newer to practice and you’re not really quite sure. So if we can practice that on our own, pulling up a chair like that’s a strategy. I talk a ton about in the publication and encourage always is how do we pull up a chair to the evidence, the artifacts? What does that tell us? And then now what? Like those three things right there are so powerful. And if we’re just like turning the page and turning the page, then we’re missing the point. So, I definitely encourage, you know, maybe grade levels to do it together. A teacher could do it on their own, but that might also feel like one more thing that I have to go do. And I and I love the idea of critical friends and thought partners as like being that part of building a learning wall rather than having to do it in a silo.
Catlin Tucker
I love that one of the things I wrote about, a long time like, I love the five E’s, instructional model or framework. And one of the things I’ve coached several PLC groups to do is to use that to structure an inquiry into a question they have about their practice, about how to better meet students needs. And as you’re talking, I could totally see how powerful it would be to anchor each step of that progression in a learning wall, right? What are their initial thoughts about this? Assumptions questions. And then as they’re moving through it, just building that to support the learning that’s happening and that I just think that there’s so many really interesting ways to think about this for professional learning.
Jessica Vance
Yeah. And it takes I think the idea of a PLC to a different space. Right. I think sometimes PLCs can be pretty. Check the boxes are dry or I’d rather be doing this because I have this to do. And so how can we like switch things up and reinvigorate the how we’re talking about our thinking and learning too. So that way we know how to do that with our students inside of the classroom. Right.
Catlin Tucker
Well, and the same impact on student engagement that this has is like the same thing. I mean teachers are just big students right. Older students. And so part of kind of what you were, you were saying speaks to this idea that inquiry requires both teachers and students to get comfortable with a level of uncertainty and comfortable exploring things that we might not have clear and easy answers for. But in some of the practical ways that teachers can kind of build this, ability to sit in spaces of, you know, uncertainty that can be uncomfortable as we’re exploring and trying to answer questions, build that into the culture of their classrooms.
Jessica Vance
Yeah. Few things come to mind. You know, I saw in this grade four classroom, she just had a spot for lingering wonderings. And I just loved that nudge of, like, what she was trying to, you know, nurture within her classroom community is we don’t have to have, like, all the answers today. Yeah. And that was a great way for her to, like, remember to like, revisit them. Right. So like, how might I use them later. So I think that’s a really great way of like showing our students that we don’t have to have an answer, even if we actually have a question, sometimes less like likely or lingering wonderings and do we still wonder about them? Or are they kind of like a moot point now because we’ve moved on and that’s okay too? Yeah. And I loved that. I just love that kind of playful way of thinking about a wonder while a different kind of way. We talked about, you know, thinking routines and I think those are just a fantastic one. So let’s those up again, because those are such a great way to have an easy start. And I love the way that the thinking routines are organized, right? Of like, what kind of thinking do I want my learners to engage in? And how can I use that thinking routine as a safety net? So that way I can resist the urge to step in and really practice listening, right? And then also like being aware of what we’re listening for. The misconceptions. Misconceptions. I love hearing them because to me, that’s my lesson tomorrow or in two weeks from now. That’s my natural provocation. Stop and jot and write that down and then lift that up later. Right? Like three days ago, you guys were wondering this or we’re kind of like tinkering this idea today when we watch this video that can come straight from the curriculum. Yeah. Let’s see if we might be able to make some connections or unpack that a little bit more. And then what does that show the students or listening or noticing what they say matters and it has an impact. Now we’re doing our arts and crafts on the side of being those magicians and figuring how to put that all together. But really, those small moves have a huge impact on, just students and how they feel about learning and being in that classroom space as well, too.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. And it keeps it keeps the teacher curious. And that’s mentally stimulating because now it’s like I’m trying to listen for the things that I’m going to kind of bring into the next lesson or next week’s lesson, because it’s something I see that you’re curious about. And that means that lesson is going to be more successful, because I’m anchoring it in something that came up for you all, which I love. So if teachers are listening or educators are listening, they’re like, oh my gosh, I love this idea. I’m super excited and the book is very substantial in terms of like strategies and examples, which is super helpful. But do you have like one piece of advice you’d give a teacher if they’re like, I’m super excited, I want to try this like next week.
Jessica Vance
One piece. Kalin. So Turkey, I’d have to say create routines around your routine.
Catlin Tucker
Okay.
Jessica Vance
Because we can’t just try a thing that we think is cool or we’re inspired by, we have to tinker and explore and like sit with it a little bit longer too. So you know I mentioned a little bit briefly here, but you know, a routine around pulling up a chair to the evidence and the artifacts. If we don’t create that routine around that, then I think we’re also kind of missing the point about documentation. It’s going to feel like a me job instead of like a job. Okay. But if we create that habit around okay, what’s here? Or oh, I haven’t collected any artifacts or evidence, what might I do? How might that help me? Right. I think just like those routines are really helpful for us to be able to lean into this messy process and to be able to slow down and observe. And maybe the routine is call on your critical friend and thought partner. Hey, you know, Wednesdays during our plan time, let’s pull up a chair to our thinking or our learners thinking together and then engaging in that discourse. I find that really powerful and really motivating as well, too. Yeah. And I mean, anything that we try to write, like we give up when it becomes hard. Yeah, it’s like we gotta sit in that a little bit longer. And really, when we create those routines and those patterns and those habits, that’s when we begin to see the fruits of our labor as well too. So lots of amazing educators in the publication sharing routines that have worked for them, that they’ve tried and what have failed. And so hopefully, those are an inspiration for readers as well to be able to tinker and explore and figure out what’s next.
Catlin Tucker
I love that, I do think so often we get excited about things and we jump right in without the work of like, how am I going to set the stage for this to be successful? Is sometimes that’s missing. And then the thing flops and teachers like, oh my gosh, I’m never doing that again. So I think that’s really good advice. And I always end my podcast asking, you know, my guest if there is something for you, whether it’s a routine, a mindset, a practice, a strategy that helps you to create like more balance in life, maybe that’s like work life balance or just like mental balance. So anything you want to share that has worked for you that might be helpful for listeners of course.
Jessica Vance
A favorite that I return to each and every day. So there’s my routine, as routine is intention setting, and stopping the pause in the morning. Whatever little or long time I have given my family in the busyness of all the things. Yeah, asking myself, how do I want to feel at the end of the day, you know, when I might pull up my calendar and kind of see what I have there? Or just kind of taking stock with how I’m feeling currently and how do I want to feel when I pull up a chair at the end of the day with my family, you know, do I want to feel joy? Do I want to feel clarity? Do I want to feel motivated, excited, fill in the blank whatever word that is? And I find that practice not only helpful for me to be able to choose how I’m showing up in my day, but also when things get messy, because I do. When it’s called life. Yeah, I can stop and pause and say, what did I want for myself? Oh, I said this thing when I was like, fresh and, you know, bushy. I tail at the start of the day, let me go back here. Right. And it keeps me also curious to look for the thing because sometimes things do feel really heavy and so might choose the opposite of I want to feel light. Okay. What might that look like today? And this practice is something that I learned from my yoga teacher, Nathan Wisdom, many years ago, and I cannot tell you how much it has impacted just me as a human. And then also to just as a professional, how I’m able to take this, routine and habit of like, noticing and like naming, but then bringing it into the classroom space as well too. I can show up a lot more whole and a lot more mindful and just more present. And gosh, we have to take care of ourselves as educators, humans in general. But educators, it’s not an easy job. And intention setting is something that I do in my consulting work. It’s how I start most workshops and set an intention for yourself. And it’s not a learning target. It’s not a goal. It’s just can you be intentional? So I hope that is something that if your listeners have not started yet, they consider trying on for size.
Catlin Tucker
I love it. I love that as a practitioner of yoga as well, I think every single yoga session I’m in is like, set your intention. How do you want to show up today in this practice? Well, I want to thank you so much for this conversation. I’ve really enjoyed chatting about the book, your work, your experience doing this with teachers. So thank you for being here.
Jessica Vance
Thank you for having me. It’s been really great. Nice to meet you. Yeah.
Catlin Tucker
I appreciated this conversation so much as a compliment to the book. I really enjoyed Evidence of Inquiry. I appreciated how strategy rich and tangible it was. I like this idea of learning walls because it makes learning which can feel really abstract, much more concrete. I have always said that I wanted students to treat their learning like they’re creating a documentary, and what learning walls can help us do in classrooms is engage everyone, this entire class community in that work, documenting their thinking over time, making connections that are visible, asking questions or surfacing wonders that they’re wonderings that they’re curious about. All of these things can help to actively engage students in the learning process, help them kind of stretch and hone those metacognitive muscles, and really appreciate the impact of the work they’re doing in classrooms. And these, as Jessica said, which I love, are not disconnected from the curriculum or the standards, but are really there to ensure that students are engaging deeply with concepts and questions and ideas. And I just I love it, and I love this idea that we’re creating something organic and maybe a little messy that reflects this beautiful learning journey that we’ve been on as a class and something that kids can return to over time again, to really appreciate their growth. Really appreciate the learning happening in our spaces. Thank you all for joining me for another episode of The Balance. I appreciate you being here. I will include Jessica’s information in the show notes so you can connect with her.
Check out her work if you want to. If you have feedback. Any questions comments, you can reach out to me on X (Twitter) → @Catlin_Tucker. Or you can always find me on my website CatlinTucker.com.
Thank you guys. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your week.
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