Podcast Episode
Episode Description
In this episode of The Balance, I chat with George Couros about his new book, Forward Together: Moving Schools from Conflict to Community in Contentious Times.
We start with the origin story, why he decided to write another book. George shares how this book is structured around principles and perspectives, not quick fixes, and why trust, relationships, and purpose sit at the center of moving forward in challenging times. We dig into the lessons he’s learned through missteps, hard conversations, and personal growth, and how those experiences shaped this book.
This conversation is an invitation for educators at every level to slow down, reflect, and consider how we create the conditions for collaboration, belonging, and shared ownership in our schools and communities.
Check out George’s newest book!
Connect with George
Episode Transcript
This transcript was generated using AI transcription tools to support accessibility and provide a searchable, readable version of the podcast. While we’ve reviewed and lightly edited the content for clarity, there may still be occasional errors or omissions.
Catlin Tucker
Welcome to The Balance. I’m Doctor Catlin Tucker, and today my guest is George Couros. He was on the podcast a couple of years ago, and I’m very excited to have him back to talk about his newest book titled Forward Together: Moving Schools from Conflict to Community in Contentious Times. For listeners who are not familiar with George’s work, he is an experienced educator. I think he’s held just about every position in education that one can. He has written books. I think the last time he was on the podcast, we were talking about Innovate Inside the Box, which he wrote with Doctor Katie Novak, and he also is the author of The Innovator’s Mindset, a fabulous book. I highly recommend it, and I’m so excited to get into a conversation about his latest work today.
Catlin Tucker
All right. Well, welcome back to the podcast. I’m so excited to have you here talking about your new book, which I think is so fascinating because I remember not that long ago, you told me, “I’m never writing another book. I can’t imagine writing another book.”
George Couros
I had no interest in ever writing a book again. And this is actually advice I give to authors. Don’t write a book because you want to write a book. Write a book when you have something to say. And it just—one day—just like, “I think I have a book.” I remember actually calling Paige on the way home from the gym. I’m like, “I have a book idea,” and two weeks later, it’s done. Now, that’s just how it hit me. So I was never… you know…
Catlin Tucker
Two weeks? Two weeks?
George Couros
You know—you obviously wrote with Katie Novak, and both of you are prolific writers—so don’t be talking like it takes you a long time either. You’re a pretty easy writer.
Catlin Tucker
I don’t know, it depends. I think the ones I’ve written on my own definitely take a bit longer. When I’m working with Novak, that woman keeps me on my… diary, right? I mean, she writes as fast as I do, if not faster. So, okay, you have this moment—you’re like… and I can totally empathize with just being in the car, being like, “Oh my gosh, this is something that I have to write.” So why this book? Why now? What compelled you in that moment to be like, “This is the book I need to write”?
George Couros
Well, if we’re talking reality, there’s a lot of contentiousness in education. It can be between families and schools. It can be within schools. And it can range from, you know, science of reading, literacy stuff, masks. It could be politics. There’s all this stuff. And we all know this is a thing—there is such a contentiousness.
George Couros
But I also think we are so focused on the problem that it was overwhelming, and I was just kind of sick of it. And literally, I’m sitting at the gym one day and someone tags me on a post. I don’t know what it is, and being the narcissist that I am, I’m like, “Oh, this is obviously about me. Why would you tag me on it?” So I started watching this video, and it’s from a school district in Long Island that I worked with, so I thought they were referencing me on something. It was West Islip in New York, and there are these kids sitting at a table, and they’re thinking about the slogan for the following year. They’re all talking, having these little funny conversations, and then the superintendent walks in, the mascot walks in, and then ultimately they’re like, “Hey, we can’t do this on our own. We have to bring our community in.” And, “Wouldn’t it be great to see your fingerprints on our slogan for the year?”
George Couros
It obviously had nothing to do with me, and I’m sitting here like, “This is it. This is what we need to do.” When we get so focused on the problem, we often don’t even see the solution. A lot of schools are doing great stuff to bring communities in, to bring people together. It doesn’t mean they always agree with each other, but they always focus on the same thing: How do we actually help our kids be successful right now and in the future? So that was the moment.
George Couros
And like I said, I called Paige. I said, “I think I have a book.” Then I wrote the introduction, wrote all the chapters down that I was going to write, and it was probably about 90% of what I was going to end up writing. Then I called the superintendent and I said, “You have no idea—this teacher tagged me in a post. I’m going to write a book.” You know, when you say something like that, I’m telling you because now I have to do it.
Catlin Tucker
You’re committing to it by saying this.
George Couros
Yeah. So that’s why I called them. And then two weeks later I’m like, “Hey, I’m done.” And it just… it hit me. And it’s the same with you—you’re such a fantastic writer and I’ve always loved your stuff. I think a lot of the stuff that I’ve written over the years, I kind of was talking about it, but I didn’t really realize I was talking about it until it all came together.
George Couros
That’s one of the wonderful things about blogging and writing. It’s not necessarily only about sharing your voice—it’s finding your voice, finding what you want to say. So I can say, “Hey, I wrote it in two weeks,” but in reality it’s been years and years of working on that and focusing on bringing people together, and creating visions and missions that people embrace not just because it’s your idea, but because they have ownership. They see the power of that too. I didn’t really know I was focusing on it so much until I saw, “Hey, I have something here.” It’s been really resonating with people, which I’m really happy about. And yeah, it’s been fantastic so far.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. When you sent me the copy so I could check it out, I read the title—Forward Together: Moving Schools from Conflict to Community in Contentious Times—and I thought not only does this feel like such an important topic for schools, but even just in this moment societally, I was like, there are so many parts of life that feel contentious and stressful right now. I love this focus on how we start in the school environment. What does this work look like? And I was curious—so that was the spark, this teacher. Does he know that he lit this little fire?
George Couros
Yeah. It’s a gentleman named Jesse Force. I think about three weeks later I’m like, “You have no idea what you did.” And then I actually sent him a book and signed it. So I don’t think he… I think the superintendent might have said something to him. But he did receive a copy of the book, and I wrote about it at the end.
George Couros
Basically, the solution is already happening in schools, but we have to find it more—because once other people start seeing it more, you start doing it more. And I really appreciated someone saying, “All we hear about is how school is bad, schools are having issues… there are so many good things going on in schools. We need to talk about that more.” And I’m like, “Yeah.” There are some issues that I talk about, but those issues are things I did that were terrible. I like to point at myself as opposed to calling out other people. And I think that’s what’s resonating with people. It’s meant to be conversational, and it could be easily condescending, and that’s not what I wanted. The feedback has been that it doesn’t come off condescending at all, because it could, and then it would do the exact opposite of what I’m trying to achieve.
Catlin Tucker
Totally. One of the things I struggle with when engaging online with other educators—or just hearing content shared about education—is there is such a focus on all of the things that aren’t working, and not as much light being shown on elements of progress and really exciting things happening in schools. I’m curious: when you frame that we’re functioning in contentious times in education, were there patterns or conversations for you? What is it that schools are facing that you feel like is so contentious that needs, in this moment, a conversation about how we move forward in positive and productive ways?
George Couros
I think this will resonate with you because as much as you might not think you’ve already been doing this in some ways, you go into places and share ideas that people don’t want anything to do with, right? And so it’s not just about politics. A lot of people will see this and think, “Hey, this is a political book.” It obviously applies to some of the political conversations we’re having, but it’s also like, “Hey, we have a bunch of people who don’t want to embrace this idea,” which you and I have been dealing with forever.
George Couros
I don’t know if you’re familiar with her, but I truly respect her. Her name is Doctor Jill Seiler, and she’s an incredible leader. You and I have been focusing on innovation forever, and in the work that we do, really thinking like, “How do we actually use things in meaningful ways?” As you and I were discussing before—focused on learning, not on technology—but some of the things technology gives us are opportunities we didn’t have without it.
George Couros
She said, “It’s really interesting because you have taken your work in innovation and just applied it to here.” And I’m like, “Yeah,” and I didn’t really realize that. You go into places where nobody knows us when we walk in, and we’re like, “Hey, try this thing that’s really hard,” and maybe new to you. And in the book, I talk about some of the stuff I used to do that probably pushed people away that I was trying to pull in. So it’s not just contentiousness in society, but it’s the principal who’s wondering why she can’t get people to embrace certain things. Is it buy-in to your idea, or is it ownership in creating a shared solution? Those are very different.
George Couros
And honestly, I think as I share that with you, you’re like, “Yeah, I have actually been doing that for a long time.” But you don’t necessarily realize it because it’s second nature. I guarantee you don’t just go in and people are like, “Yes, what you’re saying is perfect and I’m going to do it right away.”
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. Even if it’s good practice. I almost feel—and I’m sure you’re aligned with this given all of your work—there’s mindset work that’s critical to any shift. Sometimes when I come in to work with a group of teachers for a day, I’m being brought in to focus on shifting practice, the skill set piece. But I’m like, “Man, if we don’t address this higher level of what we value in education, and do our practices align with those values,” how many people are really going to walk away and do anything different after today?
George Couros
That’s one of the things I really talk about. It’s a huge takeaway, especially for administrators. When I do workshops—and I was just doing this yesterday—I do it every time: I’ll share some idea, some thinking, and some of it terrifies people or they might not be for it. And I say, “I want to know what your questions are, what your ideas are, but I also want to know where you want to challenge me.”
George Couros
And I say it kind of as a joke: You’re more than welcome to challenge me in the room. There’s only one rule: you cannot challenge me at the end of the day in the parking lot with your buddies when I’m not there. You have to do it in the room. Because those parking lot conversations—“Oh, it’s stupid”—you’re getting challenged, but I don’t have the opportunity to address it.
George Couros
So when you say, “I actually want you to push back,” it’s with the intention that I might be wrong. I don’t know if I’m right. I respect educators’ experience, and I don’t necessarily know their context or community. Sometimes they’ll say, “We can’t do this because of this,” and I’m like, “I didn’t know that. Here’s how I would change it.” And that’s where it becomes a shared solution.
George Couros
I think it’s important to encourage people to push back and challenge because we say we’re learners, and that comes from feedback. But also being comfortable that we’re not always right. I talk about the pendulum of insecurity, confidence, and arrogance. Insecurity is “I don’t know anything,” so I’m not going to lead. Arrogance is “I know more than everybody,” so I’m not going to learn. Confidence is “I know a lot, but I also know I can get better,” and that’s why I’m okay with it. I’ve never been like, “Oh, I’m so embarrassed I didn’t know that.” I’m like, “Oh, this is great information. I’m getting better now,” which is the goal.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah, for sure. And when I talk with teachers, I often say, “I’ve been doing this for a long time and I’m still learning. I’m still finding ways to improve on this practice.” I encourage them to come with an open mind. If you hit a bump, if you have a question, if you’re struggling with something, call me over—ask the question, push back. Let’s troubleshoot. If they don’t ask those questions and surface concerns, I’ll never know, and I’ll never be able to support them.
George Couros
I’m going to bet you $5 on this. I guarantee you’ve gotten pushback on something and you were like, “Hey, I didn’t know that,” and then you blogged a totally different thing at some point. You owe me $5. American dollars, not Canadian. I guarantee you’ve done that.
Catlin Tucker
Okay. I don’t know that I actually accepted that bet, but I will tell you—if I could get a coffee for my $5… I had a teacher, totally random tangent, in a training. She was like, “I love station rotation. I’m all in. I get the value.” And she said, “I struggle with the noise. I know noise can be productive, but it’s so distracting when I’m trying to lead my teacher-led station.”
Catlin Tucker
Over the years I’ve talked about ways to foster collaboration where it’s digital and they’re not talking, or it’s quiet collaboration. And I was like, “I’ll write a blog with some strategies and I’ll share it with you.” That became the most popular blog and most popular Instagram Reel I have done all year, because a teacher asked a question. I did exactly what you said—shared the resource—and clearly it’s a question a bunch of teachers had.
George Couros
I should have done $5 per time. I’m sorry.
Catlin Tucker
That would have been a better bet. Okay, so you already have written books prior to this one. Going into this project, what were you hoping this book would do for leaders and educators that builds on—or is slightly different from—your previous work?
George Couros
I did The Innovator’s Mindset, and that was a decade ago. I really appreciate that it’s a book on innovation that people still reference today, because I focus on mindset and things that don’t change. One of my favorite books of all time is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. I read it maybe ten years ago and I’m like, “This is such a good book.” Then I’m like, “When was this written?” It’s written in 1930. So to write something that could still be relevant—that’s always been my mentality.
George Couros
We talk a lot about technology. If you’re like, “Use this tool,” it’s going to be outdated by the time it hits print. So The Innovator’s Mindset was really kind of the vision of where we could go in education and what is possible. But also saying, “We do have to knock on the foundational stuff.” I wrote about the importance of the basics—like literacy—to innovation, which still resonates with people today.
George Couros
Then I wrote Innovate Inside the Box with Katie. I wrote collaborative books and wasn’t really interested in writing a book of my own because I didn’t have anything where I was like, “I really need to do this.” Forward Together is like—if you took The Innovator’s Mindset as “Here’s this vision of what’s possible,” Forward Together is “How do you get people to maybe get to that place,” but not necessarily use my vision—figure it out themselves, with their community, thinking about education in a totally different way.
George Couros
One of the things I share in Forward Together is that we try new things in education, and we have families who are terrified of it. One of the strategies we used in my school: I never had a professional learning day without parents in attendance. We would invite them in. And not only parents who were excited about what we were doing—we’d invite parents who were terrified of what we were doing so they could see it in action.
George Couros
The misconception is parents want school the way it was for them when they were kids, which is a lie. Parents want what’s best for their children. But if they know no other experience, they default to theirs as “best.” So when we would do that, a lot of families would go, “This is so much better than when I was a kid,” and then they become your advocates. Sometimes they would say, “I like 85% of this, but I’m struggling with this 15%.” And I would say, “Listen, give me a week. I’m going to do some different things and then I’ll come back to you.”
George Couros
Then I’d come back and say, “Based on your feedback, here are a couple things we changed because I didn’t think about that.” And what would those parents do? They’d go out and say, “Oh, you see this new plan? It’s awesome.” Because now it’s theirs—they created it with us. They became the biggest advocates. That’s why I don’t talk about buy-in; I talk about ownership.
George Couros
We’ve seen families really go against some of the things happening in schools. I think it’s because they hear something or read something on social media and then they take that perception. I even mention, “Bring parents in,” and some people are like, “Oh no, no, no.” I’m like, “You’re going to deal with them at some point. I’d rather be proactive.” And what about confidential comments? No—we don’t bring them into that. But professional learning? You want them to be a part of it.
George Couros
I even say in Forward Together, “I have a vision of education, but I’m not telling you that in this book because that is not the purpose of it. It’s for you to figure that out with your community.” What do you want to do? What are you trying to achieve? I don’t try to push what I want. If you want my vision, read The Innovator’s Mindset. This book is about building that vision together.
Catlin Tucker
I love that. I remember reading an old interview with Peter Senge—who did a lot of work around organizational change—and he said one of the biggest levers that reinforces the status quo are parents. To your point, having them involved in professional learning so they can understand why we’re doing these things, what the value add is for kids, how it’s going to change students’ experience—that would be so powerful. And I could see it changing the dynamic in a PD if there were families.
George Couros
It did. They were learning together, and that was important. And I know you do this: you talk about when you taught. There’s a reason you do that—instant credibility. Teachers listen to people who taught. If you’re like, “I’ve never taught a day in my life, but here are some ideas,” you lose them immediately.
George Couros
Teachers listen to teachers. Principals listen to principals. Parents listen to parents. If you’re getting pushback from parents, the best people to deal with that is other parents—bring them into the conversation. We never hesitated to do that because if we’re doing something we don’t want parents to see, we probably shouldn’t be doing it. So yeah, let’s bring them in.
Catlin Tucker
I love that. You structure the book around Part 1, which is about principles, and Part 2, focused on perspectives. What inspired you to structure it that way? And I was curious—you use the word “principles” really intentionally, not a word like “strategies.”
George Couros
I don’t think it’s strategies. It’s like: Who are you? What are the foundational things you keep at your core? The first principle is “point at yourself first.” I would tell people, “I’m writing this book. It’s called Forward Together: Moving Schools from Conflict to Community in Contentious Times,” and people’s eyes would light up—because everyone knows it’s an issue.
George Couros
And then I say, “Here’s how I start the book.” I talk about being in a session after I was a principal. I’d spent years trying to get people to integrate technology in meaningful ways in our school. I’m sitting in the session, and this person is saying you should never use technology—it’s the worst of the worst. So what do I do? I pull out my computer and start blogging about how terrible this is. People are like, “That’s a terrible thing to do.” I’m like, “Yeah, it was.”
Catlin Tucker
You link to the blog. I loved that story. You were like, “Go back and check it out,” and “Here’s why I probably would not write that today.”
George Couros
Yeah. People are like, “You’re doing the opposite of what the title is.” I’m like, “That’s the point.” It’s me. I’m saying, “Have I done this wrong?” The premise is: Was I pushing away the people I was trying to reach? Obviously I was. So when I talk about principles, it’s meant to be reflective. The hope is that people go like, “Have I done that thing? Have I been that person?” It’s easy to blame other people, but I’m going to watch what you do when you’re trying to push me. Do you do the thing you’re asking me to do?
George Couros
Then the perspectives: any book will say, “Do these four things,” “do these six things,” and they never work 100%. The constant is the principle; the variable is people. Things will go wrong. That’s why you have to stay grounded to your principles—especially when they’re hardest to maintain. The perspectives help you navigate the rough waves that are coming your way.
George Couros
Like, you’ve heard this: “We started doing this and it worked for 90% of our kids.” The first thing I’ll say is, “What do you do for the other 10%?” So I can share principles, but even when you hold true to them, they may not work the way you want, because we have that variable of the human experience. The perspectives help you navigate that and hold true to what you’re saying, because the principles are the most important to maintain when they’re the hardest to do so.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. I love all the stories in the book—they make it relatable. And I think the reflective piece is powerful. Strategies are about the action you take, the steps you move through. This invites reflection: Are you somebody worth following? How do you examine your own arc of learning? Are we willing to face the things we look back on and think, “Oh my gosh, I wish I hadn’t done that that way”?
George Couros
Yeah. I start the book with the group, then I talk about me being a jerk on social media and share that example. I ask the question: If your worst ten minutes were online, who would still have a job? No one is ever saying, “I would just watch you,” right? And so it turns the spotlight back. Like, okay, I did a dumb thing, but you’ve done dumb things too. I grew up in a time when social media wasn’t a thing, and most people my age are like, “Thank goodness Facebook didn’t exist when I was that age.”
George Couros
It’s trying to get people to look at their own practice. Some of the things I’d hate being done to me in education, I’ve done to other people outside of education too—like complaining online about a flight we missed due to weather. We do the exact same thing we hate, but we don’t care because it’s an avatar, not a person. So I’m trying to get people to reflect—through my faults—on how to bring people together.
Catlin Tucker
Okay. Let’s say I’m a leader. I pick up this book. I’m excited and I want to choose a principle to pull into a staff meeting or PD experience, but I don’t have time for a whole book study. Is there a place you’d recommend starting—maybe a principle that’s a nice kickoff for staff and could lead into curiosity about the book?
George Couros
Honestly, it’s the first one: point at yourself first. You and I both fear this: leaders go to professional learning, then go back to their school and go, “Hey everyone, here’s what you’re doing,” but they don’t see any of that stuff in themselves. That’s why teachers are terrified when administrators go to professional learning—it feels like more work on them.
George Couros
So when you point at yourself first, if you go back and tell staff they have a bunch of new stuff to do, that’s an issue. It should be, “What are some of the things I need to get better at? Where can I grow?” Even at the teacher level: “Here’s something I did that maybe didn’t connect with students. Is there a way I could have done it differently?”
George Couros
It’s looking at your own practice and how you model what you want. And one of the things I share in the book—and it’s the only learning norm I’ve ever used—is “Learn in a way that you’d expect from your students.” People are like, “What is that?” And that’s the point—you want them to have the conversation.
George Couros
Like, “No phones in our school,” but then, “Anyways, I’ve got to take this call” and you walk out of the session because you think it’s important. And on a PD day, the back of the room fills up—always the back. I bring it up and say, “You can sit wherever you want,” but if kids were here, would you push them to the front? We say we need to be respectful to speakers, to guests, so we go up to the front. So we should look at what we’re doing. If kids were here, what would they see?
George Couros
I also wrote it because I have my own kids, and they pay attention to what the adults do. I’m trying to get people to think—because I do too—there are things I can get better at. Sometimes my kids say things and I’m like, “That’s a George issue.”
Catlin Tucker
You’re like, “I’m the problem here.”
George Couros
That was me. So it’s not to guilt anyone. We expect kids to grow, so they need to see us doing the same thing.
Catlin Tucker
I agree. One of the most challenging things in professional learning is hearing teachers say, “Kids will do this” or “Kids won’t do that,” and I’m like, I see so many behaviors in PD that mirror exactly what you don’t want kids to do. You don’t want kids to have a device because they’ll be off task, but I’ve given you an opportunity to engage meaningfully with colleagues and you’re looking at your Amazon cart. Let’s be that lead learner. Let’s model what we want to see from kids. Kids notice so much more than we give them credit for.
George Couros
I don’t necessarily care if someone’s on their Amazon cart during PD, as long as you don’t get on a kid for doing the same thing. I’m quick, but I need checkouts too. Sometimes my brain is exploding. I remember one time I was in a PD session when I was a principal. I was sitting in the back on my computer and the person leading came to me and said, “You need to get off your computer right now.” And I said, “I’m actually blogging about what you’re talking about right now.” She didn’t know what to do because it was like, “How dare you,” but if I’m on my computer, people assume I must be answering email.
George Couros
You’ll never see me writing notes because I can’t read my own writing and I’ll never go back and look at it. So that’s why I do it. And then we’re like, “Kids can have devices,” but I’m going to bring three devices to the session. It’s like, one-to-one is wrong, but three-to-one is great. The learning norm isn’t to decide for you; it’s to have the conversation and say, “Do we emulate that?”
George Couros
And I guarantee sometimes you sit in the front of stuff and sometimes you sit in the back—maybe because you have to jump up to a session. It’s about the reflection.
Catlin Tucker
I’m usually a front-row girl. I always have been. It keeps me accountable for paying attention. But yeah, almost everywhere I go, the back fills up first, and I make a joke about it because we wouldn’t let our students do that for the most part.
George Couros
I’ve seen speakers who say, “Relationships with kids are the most important thing,” and then they’re like, “I want to be back in the green room. No one talk to me for 15 minutes. I will not talk to anybody.” And I’m like, what? You’re the exact opposite of what you’re asking people to do. That’s what bothers me sometimes. It’s like, “I’m not going to do the thing,” and then you’re giving advice you don’t actually do. Don’t give me advice on something you don’t do in your own life.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. Walk the walk, practice the practice. For sure. Okay, we have to talk about the perspectives section. Some of these names you gave the perspectives—you must have been laughing at yourself.
George Couros
I just laughed, obviously.
Catlin Tucker
Seriously. One of them is called “Don’t Get Used to the Smell.” Can you give people a little window into that perspective?
George Couros
Mike Kleber—he’s a teacher in Long Island and someone I really respect—wrote in his endorsement, “Nobody tells the truth like George tells the truth.” I’m very proud of that. Maybe I’m getting to that old man, crotchety age where I just say things. Like, “This is what I believe. What are you going to do?”
George Couros
“Don’t get used to the smell” is basically: sometimes you’re in a really crappy place and you need to go, and it’s okay to say it. What you don’t want to do is get used to it. I learned that before I ever worked in education.
George Couros
I had to do a summer job and couldn’t find one, so there were these places that would give you day jobs. They would call you like, “Hey, do you want to do this job?” One time I was offered a job to go to a pig farm. And it gets worse. The pigs had a disease, and I had to stand in pig poop and spray it down for 12 hours. That’s all I did—spray—because they had to sanitize the whole thing. I knew it was a terrible job, but I needed money.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah, yeah.
George Couros
I pulled up outside and I’m like, “Oh my God, does this stink.” Then I go into the barn and I’m like, “Oh my God, this is ten times worse.” I’m there for 12 hours, and you kind of get used to it. Then I walked out and I’m like, “Oh my God, fresh air.” What had stunk before wasn’t as bad as what I had endured for 12 hours.
George Couros
That’s like when we work in a school. I talk about how we spend 80% of our time on 20% of our people. What I push back on is: you should spend 80% of your time on 80% of your people, because those people are craving mentorship and growth. But sometimes you’re the 20%, and it’s not because you’re bad, it’s because you’re not a fit for where you’re at. Then we get stuck in that place, and we’re miserable. Sometimes you have to move out of it, and you’ll find a better place.
George Couros
I was listening to someone talk about this and it resonated: “I never really knew how good a principal could be until I got one.” And they didn’t notice the prior one was bad because they were like, “Oh, that’s just how it is.”
Catlin Tucker
Such a good point.
George Couros
Right? You have to go, “That’s not how I want to spend a big chunk of my life.” People appreciate the honesty. It’s not, “Work through it.” Sometimes you have to go somewhere else. And I love when people say, “But these kids need me.” Yeah—those kids need you. But every place has kids. Those kids will move on and leave that school at some point. Someone will come and take your place. You’re not going to do any good for them if you’re miserable, because you will become miserable.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. And a campus, a school is a community—it has its own culture, norms, personalities. Even a great school might not be the fit for you. Being honest about that instead of getting used to the smell… you get used to it, but it doesn’t mean you don’t resent it.
George Couros
Yeah. And if you stick with it too long, that stink doesn’t go away easily. By the way, when I told you I worked at a pig farm, you were surprised. And I was proud because I lasted a day, which was more than 90% of the people who took that job. I lasted the entire shift. Then I was like, “I’m not going back tomorrow. I cannot do this.”
Catlin Tucker
Oh my gosh. All right. Well, I know we’re closing in on time. Is there anything else you want to share about the book—or tips for reading it—before I ask you what I ask all of my guests about balance?
George Couros
Two things. One is—and you mentioned it briefly—I want it to be a reflective book. Take time. A lot of times we read books and it’s like, “You can’t control other people. You can’t change other people.” People look at you. That’s where the biggest changes happen.
George Couros
Obviously it can be done with book studies and that can lead to good conversations, but it is meant to be reflective. And I’m very proud of the cover. I think the cover’s beautiful. I really love it.
Catlin Tucker
Oh, I did see the cover. The copy I had didn’t have a cover, but I did see it on Amazon.
George Couros
Here’s why I bring up the cover. You’ve written books—you say, “I kind of want this cover,” and then they throw you options. I’m going to be honest: I liked the other options way better than what it ended up being. So I sent an email to my list: “The new book’s coming out. Here are three options. Tell me which one you like most, but tell me why. Don’t just say number one, two, or three—tell me why.”
George Couros
I was going to do a Google Form because it would be easy, but I was like, “You know what? I’m not doing that. Just reply to the email.” And I’m not going to lie—I thought they were all going to pick the one I like, so I’m right. Obviously I’m right. Overwhelmingly, everyone picked the one it ended up being. And they would say, “I like this, but think about this color,” “What about this font?” It was amazing.
George Couros
I got about 800 emails about the cover. I responded to every single person. If you just said, “Number two,” I’d be like, “Thanks.” But if you wrote, “I really like number two, and here’s why,” the more you wrote, the more I wrote back. I realized I inherently live what I’m talking about because I asked for advice. Even though I was pretty set on what I wanted, they talked me out of it. I chose something different because of it.
George Couros
When you ask for advice and you want their answer, you have to be open to being wrong. I talk about that. When I look at the cover, it feels symbolic of how it was created because it was not what it was going to be.
George Couros
A friend of mine in Ontario—her son loves the cover because she asked him. He’s bragging to his friends like, “I helped make this cover,” which is so cool. When people get their fingerprints on stuff, they want it to be successful. I talk about that in the book. There’s a ten-year-old who probably will never read the book, bragging about this cover because his mom asked him, “Which one do you like and why?” Now they have ownership over it. They see their fingerprints all over it.
Catlin Tucker
I love that. And I will echo: I would caution somebody not to read a whole bunch of chapters at once. When you read a principle, sitting with it for a minute in that reflective process will make the book more powerful for readers, which is a little different from how I typically engage with education texts.
George Couros
Yeah. The most I get out of texts is when I stop and write about them. That’s when it becomes mine. That’s where I connect and get deep understanding.
Catlin Tucker
I’m the exact same way. All right. I always end with the same question: Anything you’re doing that’s for you—helping you work toward some healthy-ish work-life balance—routines, strategies, mindsets… what works for you? I’m trying to remember what you said last time you were on the podcast, but I can’t remember.
George Couros
The last time I was on it, I was a very different human being. I’ve really dialed into my fitness—and I shouldn’t even say that. I’ve always been focused on my fitness. I’ve really leaned into my discipline with eating right, and that’s helped me a lot.
George Couros
But I don’t touch any technology other than to listen to music until I’m finished my workout. I do that every single day. I push myself in my workout—I crush myself. I’m proud of that. After that, I can deal with anything that comes my way because the hardest part of my day has been in the morning. That has really helped me.
George Couros
I take the time and I shut it off. When you make an appointment—like you and I rescheduled to be 1:30 Eastern, 10:30 Pacific—I know you’re going to be on time. I do the same thing with my workouts. If I say this is what I’m getting up for, this is what I’m doing, it’s not even a conversation. It’s a commitment. It’s a schedule thing I do every single day. That’s really helped me.
George Couros
But I do want to point out one thing in the book. There’s a chapter—one of the perspectives—and it’s probably my favorite. It’s titled “Somebody Hates You.” That is my favorite.
Catlin Tucker
Because another one of the titles that made me giggle.
George Couros
It is the truest thing I say in the book because no matter where you are in education, somebody hates you. And it’s like, you don’t spend time on things you cannot change or people you cannot please. If I do the exact thing they want me to do, they’ll still hate me.
George Couros
I’ve learned to focus on people that elevate me and lift me up. That’s better for your mental health. We try to appease people who do not want to be appeased by you. They will always have an issue with you. So I focus on who I surround myself with. There are so many people who want to do great things and want the best for you. That’s where I’m going to put my energy.
Catlin Tucker
I love that. That’s something I work on. It’s easy to let your brain snag on the people who are loudly saying mean things and forget all the wonderful feedback you get.
George Couros
One of the things when I say, “Challenge me,” in workshops—do you know what that does? The person that’s really mad, it tones it down because they’re like, “Oh, I wasn’t expecting that.” It can get worse if you don’t give them that opportunity.
George Couros
If you say, “Challenge me,” and they start yelling, they’re going to be the one who looks bad because you’re saying, “I want to grow. I want to get better.” It’s taking control and giving people a chance to share and challenge you. But I can tell real quick: you’re not challenging my idea—you just don’t like me. So I’m going to turn my attention elsewhere.
Catlin Tucker
Yeah. Fair enough. Well, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for sharing about the book. I’m really excited to have this opportunity and share it with the folks who are listening, because I think these are really important conversations for schools, leaders, and educators to be having right now.
George Couros
And I’ll see you in a decade when I maybe write another book.
Catlin Tucker
Actually, I will see you in like a week and a half at Learning & the Brain.
George Couros
That’s right. We’re going to be there. You’ll see some of the stuff that I talked about here too. Very cool. I really appreciate you calling. I know you do amazing work, so I’m so glad to be connected to you.
Catlin Tucker
Me too, me too. Same.
Catlin Tucker
I really enjoyed this conversation and the book. One of the things I often do as an educator is pick up books because I’m looking to expand my understanding of the research or specific strategies. What I liked about this book was the invitation to slow down and reflect more, to take ownership over my decisions and my behaviors and choices as an educator. It also made me think about how to empathize more with the people that I interact with on a daily basis—when I’m coming into their school, their environment, their professional learning day, and I’m proposing they consider big shifts in practice—and how challenging that can be on lots of different levels for educators.
Catlin Tucker
So it’s a really thought-provoking book in a lot of ways, and I’m excited to be able to talk about it with George and share it with all of you. I will include a link to this book and George’s other books in the show notes. I will link to his contact info if you want to reach out and touch base with him.
Catlin Tucker
As always, if you have any comments, questions, or feedback for me, I would love to hear from you. You can contact me via my website, CatlinTucker.com. I’m on Instagram at @CatlinTucker. I’m on LinkedIn. I’m on X at @Catlin_Tucker. You can find me wherever you are. If you have a question, if you have feedback, leave a comment. And I want to thank you guys, as always, for joining me for this episode. I appreciate you being here, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your week.
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